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What does RPG Need in WN?

Posted 12-28-2009 at 10:21 PM by WNxWakko
Updated 12-28-2009 at 10:37 PM by WNxWakko
I wanted to post this separate. WN spends a great deal of time trying to figure out what the FPS/RTS gamers need. We create departments, ranks and make many decisions based on those areas more than anything. The reason tends to be because FPS/RTS has a higher population. However we shouldn't ignore the needs of RPG or enforce practices or departments on RPG when they really have no use for them.

So I ask you, if you are a member of an RPG game, a game leader, an Admin, a regular members, what do the RPG gamers need from WN that doesn't exist today? For example, when we created Battle Ops, it was dedicated to building resources on organized gaming within a FPS/RTS world. So based on that, what type of resources should WN be focusing on for RPG today?

I would like to hear your feedback.
Posted in Wakko Reports
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  1. Old
    [COLOR=deepskyblue]Relating to D2 specifically, one thing comes quickly to mind is the ability to record, display, and update our ladder character information. We work so hard on the characters after a ladder reset, that it would be a nice function to display somewhere in our profile, or near the avatar, our top ranking characters along the lines of the WoW characters feature I've seen with some WN users. The idea behind this is that it gives another level of competition within the section, so we all know at any given moment what level each of us are on the ladder (provided that person updates the info) but it also lets others that may play the game as a non-primary know who to turn to if they need help or any advice. Another idea I had is a useable tournament bracket that would randomize the match-ups, and could be edited by the section leadership after a match to continue on. I would imagine that this would be useful for RTS and FTS games as well. The bracket (much like an NCAA tournament bracket people do for March Madness) would be displayed as its own thread at the top where a poll would normally be, and people may post their congratulations or smack talk below. Having this sort of feature where people can actually see the progress of an ongoing tournament may encourange more members to participate in competitive gaming.[/COLOR]
    Posted 12-29-2009 at 06:18 AM by
  2. Old
    WNxDHare3's Avatar
    I agree with Foxriver. One thing that many members strive for when playing a new MMO is the ability to show off their character, it's high level, it's equipment, maybe just how cool the avatar looks. Any way the site has done great with WoW. This is mainly helped by Blizzard giving it's community the tools to use things like WoW Armory to their advantage. If there is any way for RPG members to show off their characters or builds, I am sure they would take pride in it, and use it. I know for a fact that many D2 players spend months, dare I say, years working on characters, so a lot of pride goes into this sort of thing.
    Posted 12-29-2009 at 06:30 AM by WNxDHare3 WNxDHare3 is offline
  3. Old
    WNxWakko's Avatar
    Those are great suggestions, however they require tools to be provided from the game developers that can be added as a plug-in to the VBulletin system. Unless they create these types of tools, I have no way to add such a feature.

    The suggestions I am looking for is from a support or structure standpoint, something our leaders could be doing to help the RPG experience.
    Posted 12-29-2009 at 08:26 AM by WNxWakko WNxWakko is offline
  4. Old
    WNxClydez's Avatar
    I think we need our BO back ... not in the sense we had one before ... but a BO that only answers to the GM of each Section. I do realize we have an EC tag now but that to me was a down grade from what we had. The BO didn't require a great deal of support from the Admins and didn't need a great deal of structure as each RPG is different but related. And many Admins don't play all the RPGs to really get an understanding of each game. Honestly it wouldn't hurt to have multiple BO's for sections who can support them for different aspects of the RPG ... from planning gaming Events, Socials Events, Section to Section events, Clan to Clan Events, Platform Events (IE ... HC, SC, SCL, HCL or the Classics ... when refering to D2) or a Strictly Dueling BO.

    I know the BO was taken away from the RPGs because we went in a different direction with the CG gaming. And IMO the RPGs could use this tag back with very little Admin help as long as the GM of each section was happy with the output of the BO or BO's.

    I am also not saying that every member who has a niche be given a BO tag. But it would be subject to section Activity on an as needed Basis. I for one as the GM of D2East would only want one BO for now. But if the section grows to have a large group of HC players and I felt it was needed I would ask to have another BO Strictly for the HC platform or in similar cases if we had a group of PvP players that wanted to start making name for themselves I would give them a trial and see how well it worked. Then after a month or so I would report to the corresponding AS to ask for a BO for Dueling and give them the data and reason for it.

    Basically what I am asking for is a BO tag that has minimal AS to make sure the GM is keeping up with the BO and that the BO in question is needed. And without some large report or form ... a basic PM or Private forum post should suffice. And I am not saying to follow the BO in question around or anything but to check in with the GM and make sure the BO is still active and helpful to the section. The GM of each section should be able to manage the staff as needed if they are a good GM. One AS could handle all the RPGs needs as long as it is set up properly if this previous idea is put back into play and not made so complicated as it was before it was removed.
    Posted 12-29-2009 at 10:22 AM by WNxClydez WNxClydez is offline
    Updated 12-29-2009 at 10:25 AM by WNxClydez
  5. Old
    WNx X Wick's Avatar
    To answer above issues presented first:

    @ Foxriver: You are asking for a ladder tracking system. I suggest you try to make a new thread the DAY of the ladder reset. I don't know how your ladder system works, but you can make it so you post your standings 1 week after the reset. This way any member has 7 days to gogogogogo to bigger and better places. On the 7th day, members begin posting their individual stats, and as they add them in you make an edit to your first post with the statistics of each member. For example:

    1) WNx[Whoever] [Stats]
    2) WNx [Someone] [Stats]

    etc. After each person posts, they CAN NOT post their stats for another week, and you get weekly updates. Once the next ladder reset comes around you lock the thread and make a new one. It could work - and smack talk can be used in the thread . To keep track of the months of work (depending on how often a reset is - I assume 1x per month) you can look at my next proposal for Dhar3.

    @Dhar3 You want to show off your characters armor, titles, achievements, levels, etc. Please look at the Guild Wars Series section subforum. For a link to the section:


    and for a link to the subforum:


    Browse through it, see what it is like read the stickied threads. The HoM is in the GWS section JUST FOR SHOWING off your characters! It has been a big hit, and is always exciting to see the next poster and what they have achieved. Whether it be a new section member completing a harder-beginner mission, or an advanced player getting one of the rarest drops in the game! Definitely look into it, and tell your GM + Admin Support if you want an achievement tracking system. This can also tie in with Foxriver's ladder tracking - because after each thread is made for a ladder reset, and then the next reset comes he can move the thread in that forum to log it ^^.

    Now to address Wakko.

    First and foremost: "Im not so interested in CG as I am with organized gaming, events and the creation of an atmosphere that inspires team work, playing matches against whoever will take you on, and organizing practice nights to help improve the team dynamic. Its all for fun right? The real serious CG players are not in clans mostly, they are members of organizations that go place to place and compete for money, fame and generally play it like a sport more than the casual gaming most of us are interested in."

    This is what Battle Ops was doing for 75% of its time alive and standing. When the MC tried to shove CG down the throats - we tried at first to have it at as a stand alone project. When that failed, the MC figured it was because it was small scale and it needed to be a large-scale type of structure. That just made battle ops as a whole fail. CG is only applicable to PvP aspects in very certain instances in RPG games, and even then only to SOME RPG games. RTS and FPS sure CG would work essentially, but by pushing on something that is almost guaranteed to fail for one genre is not a good way to allow a department to thrive. I am happy you hopefully see this now as an issue >.<.

    As you propose it, I see that you want BO Admins to become new AS for sections. They will replace a lot of Special Forces as more individualized admins that know a lot about the section and/or genre rather than a broad scope of admins that are their to do forum work. I do like this idea a lot, to be quite honest. RPG Colonel must have played a handful of RPG games. RPG commissioners must play a handful of RPG games. When combining 2-3 commissioners with a colonel - these 3-4 people should be able to KNOW about 90% of the RPG sections to a greater extent than most admins currently do. (This same idea applies to FPS and RTS). I like this idea - the more specialization for sections the better the AS you have which really flows from the top down leadership wise. Better more qualified, active leaders will be selected for leader positions because of the more "personal" level the AS are on - both knowledge wise and ingame wise.

    While I do not expect every game in any given genre to be played by one commissioner / colonel, it still should be strived for if you do in fact want a connection between the sections + BO.

    RPG by itself really needs organized gameplay. I do not mean as Firewraith so commonly put a simple "screen shot competition" but raids, led by the BO, scrimmages or matches against other guilds, mission nights, grind months (level your character up for ingame rewards), dungeon raids, help the noobies night, etc. There are endless amounts of ingame events, contests, and forms of gameplay for RPG it would be hard for a newly appointed FO/BO to even think of half of the ideas. When I was colonel for RPG (and commissioner) I pushed my commissioners and RPG BO's to understand all the possibilities. I gave them examples of past events, and I even wrote in the "Front Line" issues - "Sponsored Events" which gave an insight to one really different event that I noticed in any genre for the given month. I am sure it helped many to get new events out for their section and create excitement.

    RPG BO should focus primarily on: The betterment of indivdual members (for example; helping new members get good equiptment highers levels, etc. Getting older "better" members into harder dungeons together to get rare goods, party grinds, etc.) and more guild activities. Raids, Dungeons, Guild vs. Guild, PvP, holiday celebrations (Christmas/Halloween usually have week long celebrations, have a week filled with guild events based on the holidays!), etc. This will promote activity, and improve the relationship between the guild members as they play together more and more. RPG is not about always about being the best at everything, but more about ENJOYING the time spent in the guild. If a guild is not enjoyable, than there is a flaw in the system and members will leave.
    Posted 12-29-2009 at 12:44 PM by WNx X Wick WNx X Wick is offline
  6. Old
    I was a battle ops Honor guard for the Kael'Thas section back in the day and yes the GM put the raiding stuff on me because I felt that my tag was the person to go to for raid times. Thats how well I was able to schedule events and raids for the Kael'Thas section. I am now an Engineer for development and they got me concentrating on rolling in new games. My best genre I am experienced in is RPG's. I felt the BO Department did a excellent job in the RPG Genre and I felt that the BO Department kept recruitment going and kept a lot of these RPG games going. I seen that we lost a lot of RPG Games due to lack of recruitment. I felt that the BO was there to keep activity up and kept recruiting going. When I start doing my research on new games, MMO's or regular RPG's, I have to agree with Wakko here.

    I feel that bring back the BO Department or something for this will really help out the RPG sections today. We all know that most MMO's or RPG's have end game stuff, PvP, and a lot of other things. I felt that the MMO's just has too much to offer where if we have something where a section based rank is based off of events, recruiting, activity, etc. I would so approve it
    Posted 12-29-2009 at 04:40 PM by
    Updated 12-29-2009 at 04:42 PM by WNxLordGene
  7. Old
    WNxIngeronic's Avatar
    I am sort of tired of writing long replies trying to include everything I want to say in one post and such, so I shall try to keep this rather short in comparison to what I would normally post on RPG in general and BO RPG.

    I have to agree with X Wick, I always pushed the commissioners I worked with to work competitive gaming in the betterment of players. That would include guild raids, small/large scale pvp, duels, boss hunting are the main objectives in most RPG games, some will obviously differ from time to time. All of them types of 'betterment of players' in some games would be visible to other players, guilds and sometimes put onto ladders. I still think that is the best way to accomplish what is needed for BO in any sense, simply because by trying to improve all players in the section it creates more events for everyone to take part in, whether it be a tournament to help level up someone else who is lower then you or whether it be a competition to bring in the most money to the ingame guild.

    Events in RPG games are a huge part of the game and why someone will join a guild, they want to be able to game and group with people of similar levels with themselves. By having regular events it encourages people to recruit, shows a good team spirit toward other guilds and has a much greater chance of recruiting more members if other people regularly see members in large groups hunting. Yes, even the screen shot competition and be made fun, as long as it isn't a regular event.

    WN restricts what events can and will happen in a game because of how strict it is, the promotion system and the time needed to be a certain rank. I understand they are their for a reason, but I think they should be reviewed for all current RPG games as whole.
    Posted 12-29-2009 at 09:16 PM by WNxIngeronic WNxIngeronic is offline
  8. Old
    As a (so far) exclusively RPG player in WN: what X Wick said. The thing that I think makes RPGs stand out as compared to FPS/RTS is that sheer profusion of things to do. X Wick ran through a few of them, but literally any activity possible in the game can be the focus of a night with the section. And at least in my personal experience, there are sections that "get this," and they're great sections, hands down. EVE may not have too many people, but there's a great sense of unity there because the corp does everything together. WoW's a bit more focused on a few activities, mostly raiding, but somebody's always finding something fresh and getting other people into it. If/when there's a re-establishment of BO, or a BO-surrogate, or whatever, I would just hope that whoever's in charge of the RPG bits of it is able to learn from the sections that really leverage what makes our genre special.
    Posted 12-29-2009 at 11:07 PM by WNxMentalEngineer WNxMentalEngineer is offline
  9. Old
    WNxFireWraith's Avatar
    RPG's, in general, require a better Game Leader and section officers than a FPS/RTS section. I'll explain.

    In a FPS/RTS, it is very easy to jump into a game that has been out for a while and you can get up to speed, start a section, etc. Player skill is more important than experience and it's easy to get caught up in those genres.

    In RPG, it's all about level and time invested in the game. Someone who has invested 500 hours in a RPG will be better than someone who has spent 50 hours in it, which is not necessarily the case in RTS/FPS. When a RPG section dies in WN, it is nearly impossible to revive. You can send Development Officers into those games but they will all be starting from scratch at level 1, while the majority of the player base will be high level due to the game having been out for a while. This makes recruiting next to impossible. High levels recruit players, it's that easy. RPG players look for 2 things in a clan; high activity and high levels. Both of those lead to a successful section. When a RPG section dies, you lose the ability to have those high levels because you start over. This is a problem that is very unique to the RPG genre.

    What can WN do about that? I don't have any immediate suggestions. But it is something to keep in mind.
    Posted 12-30-2009 at 02:33 PM by WNxFireWraith WNxFireWraith is offline
  10. Old
    FW a suggestion for having high lvls in rpgs is to have dev officers jump into them very early. This is why we need research engineers out there all the time looking for RPG's especially, we need WN to get a foot in the door early. Recruit up a few of the people who are in-game and eventually they will be the higher lvl people that WN would need to sustain RPG guilds.

    The faster WN enters a RPG that just came out the better off we can do to help that section grow and become stable.

    Posted 12-30-2009 at 09:19 PM by
  11. Old
    WNxDHare3's Avatar
    I could agree to what Wake says. It would require more members in the Department, but we could always add it to our list of priorities, right behind actually bringing games into WN.

    I was just thinking as well.. We could accept regular members as Miners under the Research Dept., instead of Engineers, whom require leadership experience - so that this could appeal to more people. They would be equal to the Engineers, but would not be able to Support any Sections in Development, but would still be required to play new games, as well as dedicate themselves towards current games.

    Just some future thinking - Miners could be the top of their Sections, skill/level wise, the Section would have a Core leadership, and if it ever fell back on Dev., that Miner would be able to pick it back up, by either becoming a GC or simply continuing to play the game. Of course Miner stays as a sub-rank, as this is not such a priority position, and is less demanding than others. Miners could still help the Research Engineers seek out new games to bring into WN.
    Posted 12-30-2009 at 09:38 PM by WNxDHare3 WNxDHare3 is offline
    Updated 12-30-2009 at 10:01 PM by WNxDHare3
  12. Old
    Lets say we have 5 of these miners aka "scouts" as willthetactic is calling them, playing games when they are 1st comming out. Those scouts will quickly try and get an in game guild rolling, so they can recruit a few core members. Those core members will become high lvls eventually then when game releases outta the beta or becomes popular we have a strong stand point.

    We then can recruit members due to our core high lvls. This will help stabalize a dying genre that is RPG around here. This will call for a bigger dev dept, but more rpg sections will enter WN, with higher lvl members, with core leadership built from ground up and from beginning of the game. Thats why the scouts/miners need to find games quick. They have to be players who visit outside forums, learn game mechanics quick, know the in's and out's.

    I am a big RPG, MMO player and I enjoy competitive RPG/mmo PvP and WN has never been able to really dominate in rpg's becasue we are meodicre at best, this system DHare and will are brining with the scouts/miners sounds great.

    Posted 12-30-2009 at 09:58 PM by
  13. Old
    WNxWakko's Avatar
    My RPG experience was in Diablo 2 and WoW. I played Diablo 2 for about 3 years as primary and I was extremely active during that time frame. So I am not familiar with any other RPG's but I have to assume they are similar in most ways. I do realize there are always differences but my experience is limited to those two games.

    In Diablo 2:

    I was there when we built the sections from the first stone and expanded in to East/West/Europe. We rose to over 100+ members and held it this way for a long time.

    Competitive: We actively engaged in wars with other clans by just challenging them or in other cases we would terrorize other clans just to get their attention and cause a series of battle engagements. We took the battle to the games, the chat rooms and their websites. We drew them out so we could participate in competitive PvP 1v1, 2v2 or 4v4 battles. This allowed us to practice and improve our skills that wouldn't otherwise be learned in the PvE experience. The point is that was the competitive experience and it was a handful of us that would schedule nights to do this or organize events around this concept so to inspire other members to get excited about it. After a while we began attracting some great players and build a good long lasting reputation that we still have today.

    Trading and Gear: In addition we all worked as a team in the trading part of it because you must put focus in that area. We would come together and share and discuss the value of our goods and work together as a team to obtain certain items. It wasn't about self interest, it was ok we all want this item, so lets all work together to either find, trade or steal it until we all have it. Steal is a loose term because if you killed them, you could steal the items that dropped so essentially we would at times gang up on players that looked like they might have some quality gear. We also would take turns going into the trade rooms and try to bid or sell items for the group. One or two people would collect the items from the group, sell/buy what we could and then meet back together to reconcile the items and money.

    Questing: We would as a group recruit 1-3 new members and spend the whole day bringing them through the quests, helping them level, showing them our skills, chatting and getting to know them. We built the bond which brought comfort that they picked the right group. From there it was easy to introduce them to everyone else, bring them to the chat, introduce them and basically put them into the spotlight for while so they would gain popularity in the clan. This further improved the relationships and trust and then we could feel comfortable that other members would invite them to the games. Questing is important and you needed to do that with the new members as well as the veterans.

    Not counting MMO, I would have to assume that these principles still apply. As leaders these are the things we did and its important that are currently leaders do the same and not get caught up in self interest. Self interest only provide a short term happiness in the gaming experience. That's why we all join clans, to get into the team environment.

    World of Warcraft

    I played this for about 6 months solid as primary. I will say that I will never play it again. In the end I ended up hating the dynamics of the game.

    Questing: It was always a solo event or if you were lucky someone of higher level would quest with you for an hour, but usually everyone was into the self interest of the game. Unless you get to the Level 60, 80 or whatever the highest is now, you dont get much team dynamic enjoyment. I never made it to those levels and the time it took to get to my level 35 before I stopped took far too long.

    Competitive: Raids, that is what it was all about, but the problem was unless your max level with everyone else, your not going to have to many clanmates on your side. So what I do know is once you get there its great but you cant maintain a clan unless you are mostly all level caped. So new people are mostly overlooked and I believe the focus in only to recruit those who are capped or almost ready to cap. Generally I think all those members are committed elsewhere, maybe I am wrong so what is your choice?

    Trading: At least the system they have is solid, although most trading is done in auction houses and not so much between members, so I think that aspect is not as popular as it was in Diablo with regards to person to person. My experience here was limited so I may not know all the facts once you get to the max levels.

    Teamwork: I saw too many great members abandon WN in the beginning of this game due to the level cap issue and members not wanting to wait for WN to catch up, so they left for self interest. I dont know how you can battle against that. If a section collapses, I could see it being very hard to revive it. At least with traditional RPG you can buy the game once and then as an Admin Support jump in every so often to help out. I cant help the MMO unless I want to pay subscriptions all the time and most admins are going to feel the same.

    Anyway based on this, I think MMO is hard for clans and what I know of the RPG in past years is slowly disappearing. Hopefully Diablo 3 will bring some life back into it because I love RPG game, I just dont like MMO. I dont like the idea that a monthly fee it attached. I guess I'm just not that hardcore about MMO. Its one thing to commit hundreds of hours, but I also dont have the time for MMO, it requires you practically dedicate your life to it. So in that regards, any support towards MMO isn't going to come from me much, you may be better looking towards other Admins who are into MMO. I just dont know what WN can do for members in the MMO world. I have to leave that to the RPG Admins of those games. I will certainly listen to suggestions and help to see what can be provided in MMO but so far it seems that help can only come from a section and the Admins and I cant do a whole lot except provide a space. I think the only way Dev can help in MMO is to identify a few members that are interested and pick them out of the crowd, tag them with GC and let them run with it. If they make it great, if not they will leave Dev and you just pick out some more people. The resource is members showing interest, them going out and trying to recruit and hoping they can get enough people to start the game up. How can engineer help that? Most cant pay for different MMO subscriptions all the time, they will go broke. So all they can do is do some research on the games and bring back the info in the form of game summaries or post on game forums asking people to come join WN and build a section. Promise them leadership if they can bring it in.

    So in summary, my abilities, experience and knowledge are limited to non MMO RPG game types.
    Posted 12-30-2009 at 11:21 PM by WNxWakko WNxWakko is offline
  14. Old
    WNxDHare3's Avatar
    The Diablo Section still works that way, well until the new update, now it's much harder to train new recruits. But, they continue to come together regularly, trade gear, level members. It is that kind of selflessness that Section's need to adapt.

    I can agree on WoW, I play many new MMO's often, and it is incredibly rare that I come across party oriented game play, ROSE online is one that requires a party. The BEST Party game is FFXI Online, I would recommend that to anyone, as the party mechanics are so in depth, and each member plays a part in every encounter. Amazing game, but because of it's Guild Support in-game, it isn't right for WN, most people are fine with the way Square-Enix set that up, hopefully the party-oriented game play will continue with the next addition.

    I do agree that Engineers are unable to help every game, in-game. That has ALWAYS been a problem, my section for FFXI failed because of the lack of support. But, we can only do the best we can, and we do tag those best fitting of the title "leader". If we can't get in the game, then I expect the personnel in charge of that game to at least read about the game, and understand it some-what.

    I would be greatly interested in your opinion on the "Research Miner" idea. I think it could work out, and it promotes even more gaming in Development.
    Posted 12-30-2009 at 11:42 PM by WNxDHare3 WNxDHare3 is offline
  15. Old
    I am a new member from DDO, very new to everything in WN, but with over 10 years of experience in other kind of online games and their "clans". One idea came to my mind after reading this thread, so decided to post it regardless of any knowledge if it has been tried before.

    If the levels create a problem for co-op, would it be possible to create/found game nights based on levels? E.g. on Mondays it would be about levels 1-4, on Wednesdays about 5-8 etc. At least in DDO it is possible to have several characters and it would be nice to be able to play with many of them in various game nights.

    If someone chooses to play with some main character, then (s)he would participate on suitable nights. Others might use different characters on different nights.

    Also it would be great if there were pre-planned quests for such game nights, which would be announced on forum a few nights before the night. Lots to do for section leaders (and officers?), but could it work? Has such been tried before?
    Posted 12-31-2009 at 02:07 PM by
    Updated 12-31-2009 at 02:21 PM by WNxKreuz
  16. Old
    Well Wakko the thing i really noticed about RPGs people don't wanna fool with the forums and while I have the saying if you can't participate on the forum aspect you can't participate in the in game aspect cause I myself find the forums and roll call an EXTREMELY useful tool i was thinking maybe like lower the required roll call numbers to 10 like the consoles cause I can't speak for everyone I can only speak as my expiriences with DDO and RoM that 90% of my recruits get scared off by the forum and roll call aspect...just my two cents
    Posted 02-15-2010 at 03:53 PM by
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